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Sonia, I pretty much agree with you! I like heirlooms a lot. In fact I primarily plant them but they don't always perform like I want them too. I mostly plant them for the taste, the uniqueness of the fruit, or the fact that I can save the seed which helps with our bottom line. The native plant thing is good but with some common sense. Natives can easily spread out of control. It's all about plant selection, finding the right one for the right purpose. I have no issues what so ever with foreign plants that aren't invasive but I will replace those that are on my state's invasive pest list. I enjoyed the post, but don't tell Martha that... ;)

Last summer my heirloom tomatoes did great. This year, thanks to the weather, not so much; even the flavor was affected. But the two hybrid tomatoes I planted produced tasty bumper crops. Lesson learned! I'll still grow some heirlooms, but will fall back on some hybrids too.

Hah! I also have a garden column at the Orange County Register. Remembering the native plant people who insisted (with a snotty attitude too) that their events NOT appear in our garden calendar, "because growing natives is not about gardening."

Oh really?

I once had someone tell me that they were only growing heirlooms instead of hybrids because hybrids are GMO's... seriously?!?!?!? When I tried to explain it to her she took on that "puritan" attitude and I just gave up.... (and yes I grow both - have to cover all bases!)

Agreed! And "SUSTAINABLE"! If I hear the word "sustainable" one more time, I think I will scream! Seems like every talk, every conference for those of us in the landscape industry is about "sustainable!", "Eco-!", etc. Sheesh!

I follow my own three strikes theory for garden plants. If I buy it and it dies or under performs for the third time whether it be native, exotic and whatever category it fits in I do not buy it or recommend it. Amish Paste tomatoes are now coming close to being excluded in my vegetable garden.

Amen, sister. And don't forget the organic purists - no matter that some organic products are more toxic. Sometimes black/white ideology trumps reason and evidence.
And yes, it's the holier-than-thou attitude that really galls and sours the whole discussion.

i find it amazing that someone can use the title Master Gardener to justify their superiority in the horticulture world. i have a BFA and an associates degree in horticulture and landscape design, along with going thru the extremely difficult test of passing the CLP, certified landscape design thru PLANET. but for some reason the public thinks a Master Gardener has top merit. bull pucky. i went through the master gardener program and became one. the courses are EASY and the people who participate are VOLUNTEERS. who have the time to dedicate themselves to learning and sharing with others. there were volunteers in the program that knew practically nothing about plants and had no higher education degrees, but had time to volunteer and learn. i think it's not right to use the word MASTER. the public assumes you have a Master degree. i'm not kidding.

Som day, what we call hybrids today will be cocnsidered heirlooms and Martha's descendents will have something to complain about.

I have nothing against hybrids, but if you plant a variety of heirlooms it seems mighty unlikely that they are all going to fail in any given season while the brave hybrid soldiers on.
I have to agree with Susan, that there are issues with the 'Master Gardener' qualification for the reasons she states.
I'm amazed that Sonia Day gets her seeds from California! Nothing against Renee, I'm sure her product is excellent, but why wouldn't you support producers closer to home and in your own climate zone? There are countless fabulous seed sources right here in Ontario. The Seeds of Diversity website makes it easy to find what you're looking for.
Taking any philosophy to extremes is likely to result in a skewed perspective.

Actually, what troubles me is people who use labels such as eco-evangelist or Nazi (!) to describe a very small minority with rigid views.
For example, I know a lot of people are into native plants. I don't know a single one who thinks some natives had better be kept out of the garden because they're too aggressive. And almost all mix non-invasive exotics with beautiful natives in their garden. I expect that Martha is an exception among tomato gardeners as well (and what's so "eco" about heirlooms?).

Well, I guess it only makes a rant if you pick out the extremes. But let's leave the labels out, please.

I have nothing against Master Gardeners, and would like to go through the program myself if I could (the waiting list in my county is not even open anymore b/c it is so long), but I also agree wholeheartedly to Beth's points.

And Sheri is right on about philosophy extremes!

I would just say that avoiding calling someone a Nazi is a good idea. Once you do that, any point you may have is gone.

There are always going to be people on both sides who's opinions are loud, obnoxious, and overreaching.

Like claiming that only heirlooms are good. Or that native plant people are all crazy purists. Neither argument is sane or conducive to rational discussion.

Booty on them. They're more like Garden Dunces than nazis.

If they were so pure and perfect, they would only grow native CROPS in their garden as well; no tomatoes at all unless you live in Central or South America! Peppers? Maybe if you live in the Southwest. Watermelons? Sorry, only for Africa. "Native" is such a weasel word anyway.

My name is Sarah and I grow heritage tomatoes. Do I have to admit to being a plant nazi too?
I live in zone 4 ish, in a mountain climate so hail and snow can happen pretty much anytime. I got most of the seeds from local seed sellers so they are adapted to my climate. I get a crop every year. This year was cold and wet followed by a drought....still got tomatoes. I save my own seeds so maybe I have super adapted tomatoes. I often find that so called hybrids are pretty stable when they are grown out so that hybrid vigor maybe somewhat exagerated.
Fell free to grow what you want, just don't inflict it on me. Which is how I feel about religion and other belief systems

It seems to me that anyone with that rigid a view of the world must have an awful lot to be angry about. You likely are just one of the targets of her Puritanical wrath.

BTW - I'm amazed it took 8 comments before someone objected to your use of "Nazi". Usually that's a hot-button someone pounces on right away.

@Gail - Too bad about Amish Paste. I've had nothing but success w/ it. Have you tried Banana Legs ? Excellent flavor, though you won't get bright red sauce since, as the name suggests, it's on the yellowish side. Or Stupice (not a paste type, however), if you're in a somewhat cool zone.

I'll also add that I gave up all faith in the Master Gardener certification when I saw (on more than one occasion!) someone say "Well, *I* am a master gardener, and *I've* never seen (fill in blank) be invasive."

Uh-huh. And you've lived everywhere in the country, I imagine? Including my wooded area, where I'm tearing leatherleaf mahonia out going "What the hell and where did it come from?" (one of those fill-in-the-blanks.)

Over-reaching jerks can be found with all KINDS of qualifications...

Please add GMO haters to the "my way only" Puritan list.

Amish Paste has done miserably for me in 2 different climates. Stupice IS fabulous. I am right with Sonia on this rant. We can achieve a much saner approach to all this if we actually open our eyes and ears to what other people have experienced, done, learned.That's how gardeners learn. As for titles and degrees, in addition to trial and error in my garden, I learned the most of what I know from a lifetime nurseryman with no more than an 8th grade education and the elderly customers who bought seed from the shop where I worked. Experience counts, no matter where you get it.

Where I have a problem with the zealots is when they seem to influence marketing trends, making it more difficult to find things in the nursery and garden center. Otherwise, it's pretty easy to ignore them. I used to argue with them when I happened into a conversations with them, now I just say something like "Oh, is that how you do it at your place?" You'd be surprised how many "true believers" don't even garden...

speak on....the world need more moderate views , and fewer zealots and preachers. Also , @ Beth, I know lots of people with horticulture degrees who know far less than the "lowly" master gardeners I work with. Titles and degrees aside, it is often experience and willingness to learn that make the better gardener, you will know the good gardeners when you meet them regardless of where they "graduated" from

On the hybrid versus heirloom issue. Everyone should grow what does best for their situation. However, hybrid seed is the result of the combination of at least 2 inbred lines. Usually each line is inbred for at least 6 generations for tomatoes. That is at least 6 growing seasons that arable land and resources are not used for food production. If you happen to farm or garden in a country where the limiting factor in growing something is water, land or labor, there is a question as to whether greater hybrid yield is actually a greater net yield when factoring in the extra resources required to make that seed.

Beth, Master Gardeners exist to help people who know nothing about growing things to learn gardening. If someone calls about a deadspots in their lawn the Master Gardeners help them out. I have grave doubts that your BFA taught you anything about IPM, grafting, or how chill hours apply in Southern California. Southern California Master gardeners do know these things. I agree that many Master Gardeners are a little dull and not deeply into modern or classic garden design and know little to nothing about how to handle drainage around a home. Many Master Gardeners, however, have incredible depth and breadth of knowledge, especially of the particular part of the country they garden in. Many Master Gardeners have advanced degrees, generally not in horticulturally related fields. Master Gardener is an avocational, not a vocational certification. By the way, I am not and do not want to be a Master Gardener.

That is so true!
This summer I planted about 10 varieties of "heirloom" tomatoes. Only two of them didn't rot right on the vine. One of them is Brandywine and another is Green Zebra which is not exactly a heirloom.
Sungold F1, on the other hand....

Funny how one size doesn't fit all. We grow what we can grow--no GMO, but what's the point in drawing a hard line between traditionally bred hybrids and heirlooms? At some point at lot of these heirlooms were backyard hybrids--indeed, we grow one we call "backyard inbred" that heralds back to a bushel of unknown, probably hybrid paste tomatoes we bought from the Amish in 1999. Volunteers emerged from sheet (lazy) composting in 2000 and we kept a few that turned out to be tart, tasty and reliably high yielding. Who knows what kind of genes have been insect-bred into these bad boys. I prefer heirlooms only because they've stood the test of time and usually offer a quality (taste and texture) I demand. But, at what point do we accept a hybrid like Rutgers, which is older than I am? Never? That's absurd.

My local zealot wraps herself in the cloak of superhero--if we don't "save the heirlooms" who will? There's a point there, but then there is the point that we eat out of our garden hard--like the freaking deer--and a crop failure is cause for significant economic hardship. If a hybrid plant--like one of the Jim Baggett hybrids, since we're talking tomatoes--can get me a couple of weeks earlier harvest I'm going to throw a pair in the garden and see what happens. Every day I'm harvesting tomatoes and lettuce (my kids won't eat the raw kale and chard salads I'll eat in the summer) I figure I save $4. That's $28 a week.

The same woman who condemned me for the crime of hybrid nonchalance harped holy hell this year because we finally sucked it up and used copper spray after two devastating years of blight took out our tomatoes--all of them--in both 2009 and 2010.

We have had great luck with Amish Paste, by the way, as well as Costoluto Genovese, Opalka, Silitz, and Oregon Spring.

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